An anonymous #MeToo source goes public (2023)

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. Although reviewed by a human transcriber, it may contain errors. Please watch the episode audio before quoting this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com if you have any questions.

From The New York Times, I'm Sabrina Tavernise. This is "daily". It's been more than five years since the #MeToo movement changed the world and brought down powerful and abusive men. That moment was sparked by reports in places like The New York Times

Behind these stories are sources, many of them anonymous, who take enormous risks to expose misconduct, harassment and sexual assault. Today, the anonymous source behind the pivotal story revealed her identity for the first time. My colleague Rachel Abrams will tell her story.

[play music]

Today is Thursday, May 18.

Ali Dirks described himself to me as a "nobody". Ali grew up in a small Indiana town where the Midwesterner hates pomposity. When you talk to her, she often apologizes for things before she can even say them, or announces that what she's about to say sucks. Sometimes it feels like she's afraid of taking up too much space in the world.

So when Ali graduated from law school, it made sense that many of her friends wanted good jobs at a strong law firm, and Ali decided she wouldn't. She just doesn't think these jobs are for her.

Ali roamed around, polled for various law firms, and worked in an obscure part of the legal world that non-lawyers might not have heard of. This is called a document check.

Document review is essentially where lower level lawyers sift through piles of documents and evidence and highlight what is deemed important enough for higher level lawyers to read. By the time Ali was in her early thirties, she was ready for something new.

In 2018, Ali found a job at the company she never thought she could work for, a large top-notch law firm called Covington and Burling. She still does document reviews, but it feels like a huge improvement.

The watershed came sooner than Ali expected. Just after joining Covington, she was told she had a new case, a big one.

The investigation assigned to Ali by Covington is related to former CBS CEO Les Moonves. Some of you may remember the situation in Les Moonves. But to quickly illustrate what this investigation is about, Les Moonves is a living legend on American television. He is known for endorsing hits like "Survivor", "ER", "CSI", and "Friends". Known for picking up hits, he was dubbed "the man with the guts".

But in the summer and fall of 2018, The New Yorker published allegations of more than a dozen women accusing Moonves of sexual misconduct. The allegations are numerous: harassment, harassment and assault. Moonves denied the allegations, but still left CBS in September 2018, making him one of the most powerful people to lose his job during the #MeToo movement.

The network hired Covington and another law firm to investigate the company's allegations and culture. One big thing at stake is a $120 million severance package. The investigation will determine if he should be allowed to resign and take all the money, or if CBS can retroactively fire him, in which case he'll lose that golden parachute. It is by far the biggest, most high-profile case Ali has ever handled.

The things I do, moving around in piles of paper, reading endless emails, probably somehow manifest themselves in the real world. I guess the reason I find it rude or tasteless is because it's in the news, so wanting to be involved in something isn't a great or noble motive.

But I think it's just my invisibility and the precarious nature of the kind of work I do reviewing documents -- it's so disappointing that one of the most prestigious firms in the country, more than that, not only finally found work and not just assigned to an investigation of a big case, but the work we do may end up being something my friends and family can read. I probably won't be in the credits anywhere, so to speak, but I'm committed to it. I am part of it.

At Covington, Ali was one of about 35 people who reviewed thousands of documents, emails, memos, letters and company records. Many of them, she says, are mundane, innocent, and downright boring office work. But soon Ali begins to see evidence of Les Moonves' abuse. More importantly, she saw in all this that he enjoyed loyalty and support in the upper echelons of CBS.

Ali was excited about the case in part because it was an opportunity to be a part of something big, the #MeToo moment. But Ali, like all of us, can look around and see lawyers taking different positions on what's going on. Week after week, lawyers are in the news to stand up for victims and advocate for justice for their clients.

But other lawyers rose up against alleged abusers and similarly called for justice for their clients. Strangely, Ali's new job puts her in this "us and them" situation. On the one hand, she can envision herself as an investigator investigating and holding account of allegations of sexual misconduct. But on the other hand, she works for Covington, who works for CBS.

Ali knew from years of document research that no matter how much damning evidence she produced, she had no control over what CBS did with it. They can do something about it and make it public, or they can do well to keep it a secret and minimize the damage by burying it. For Ali, at this point of reckoning, it becomes unclear which side she is working for. Ali was on the train home from work one day when she read something that touched her.

Here's a New York Times article about the Moonves investigation. During the story, doubts arose about Covington and CBS. Some said they did not cooperate with the investigation because they did not trust CBS or Covington and their lawyers, lawyers like Ali. Ali was like, hey, I'm here. I try to do good.

Then Ali did something impulsive that changed the rest of her life and the lives of many others. She looked up the email that sent the tip to The New York Times.

Ali's email lands on a generic prompt email address that anyone can write to. An editor sent it to me, me, because Ali was reading my story on the train that day. Ali eventually became a great source of me being myself.

I can't stress enough how unusual Ali's email was. It's almost unheard of to get an email out of the blue from someone offering help with the very thing we're investigating. Most importantly, it's an attorney who has access to sensitive details that would normally be under the lock and key of attorney-client privilege. It's unclear what exactly Ali was offering or what she wanted, but it certainly seems that Ali would be in a great position to share inside information if she decides to do so.

Ali and I first met in the fall of 2018 at a bar in the District of Columbia. She had black hair and was wearing a red firefighter jacket, so I could easily recognize her. She seemed to have never met a reporter before, especially not in this case.

Ali's motives on this point have always been complicated and unclear to them. Even Ali will tell you they are messy. I think part of her was trying to figure out what was the right thing to do and do it. In the #MeToo moment, another part of her felt wiped out.

She is also - and this seems to be a key factor - someone who is used to feeling a little powerless. She also longs to be a part of something important. The longer we sat on the bar stools, the more you could see that her excitement outweighed all her ambivalence. She started showing me handwritten notes and timelines, as well as interesting details from within the investigation.

We talked for hours. One specific thing I told her was that we were particularly interested in this piece of advice that my colleague James Stewart had. According to the news, Moonves was impeached not because of the allegations in The New Yorker, but because of ties to another woman who has not made the allegations against Moonves public.

Moonves was clearly trying to keep the woman quiet. Her name is Bobby Phillips. Ali told me she thought she had seen some material on Phillips and said she would contact them. We packed our things and left.

[play music]

I wasn't even on the train back to New York when Ali started texting me about texts she'd read about Les Moonves and Bobby Phillips' old manager, a man named Malfoy Doyle, a dialogue between. The two men were clear about what had happened to Phillips and seemed intent on silencing her. Ali was disgusted.

So what happened was this talent manager, Marv Dauer, arranged a meeting between Bobbie Philips and Les Moonves in the 1990s. Doyle isn't exactly sure what happened at that meeting, but he suspects it was something really bad because Phillips was so upset afterwards. In the text conversation, he threw what he knew about that incident at Moonves' head, pressured the director to give Phillips a job on the CBS show, and hinted that if he doesn't, she probably won't. will tell reporters.

While Doyle didn't go into details at the time, we would later report on how Phillips accused Moonves of sexually assaulting her during that meeting. She claims Moonves told her, "Be my girlfriend and I'll let you in on every show," before grabbing her by the neck, pushing her onto her lap, and forcing his penis into her mouth.

Phillips said it was painful. She developed anxiety about the audition and was reluctant to meet only male executives. She said that once at a movie screening she was so scared to see Moonves that she threw up in an alley outside the theater. Her career never took off.

Aside from the alleged assault, the text messages held a huge stake in the CBS investigation. They suggest Moonves could be compromised as head of CBS, making decisions that appear to be based not on the company's interests, but on concerns about his own reputation. The information also meant that Ali and I met on the very first night, she gave us the key to a huge story. And that's just the beginning.

[play music]

In the days and weeks that followed, Ali's uncertainty continued to diminish as she saw more and more of what was bothering her during the investigation and strengthened her belief that talking to me was the right thing to do.

Many of the things Ali saw were more glimpses into Moonve's wrongdoing. But there were also clues that made her worry about what CBS would do with what the study found.

Ali recalled looking at internal CBS documents that tracked various allegations of misconduct company-wide, including the steps that had or had not been taken in response to those allegations.

All things considered, the material gave Ali the impression that CBS could have taken the allegations more seriously. She wondered if the company would take the Covington investigation seriously. Soon, Ali began sharing information from such documents, as well as texts, memos, emails and testimonials from key witnesses.

What has always struck me about Ali's story is how much it contradicts the whistleblower stereotype. I think we tend to see whistleblowers as acting with clarity and conviction. What Ali did was very different. Her motivations are a bit complicated.

She is conflicted. She took the messy first steps because she had an instinct and felt swept up from the moment she entered. In the end, she moves on without fully realizing how much it will cost in the end.

We will be right back.

The first story, based largely on material leaked to The New York Times by Ali Diercks, ran on November 28, 2018, about a month after Ali first contacted us. The headline read, "If Bobby Could Talk, I'd Get Screwed — How Les Moonves Tried To Silence The Prosecutor." A faded Hollywood executive's plan to cover up allegations of sexual assault."

The new news about Moonves and Phillips immediately drew attention to Moonves' massive exit package. And arguably CBS paying him only $120 million looks even worse.

Naturally, Ali had to watch it all from a very strange secret location.

Ali's secret is nowhere as isolating as her job at Covington, where she lives a high-stakes double life day in and day out. Ali spends her days thinking about what information to share with us and how. Sometimes sneak into the lobby to send a message. She kept her distance from her colleagues, didn't friend anyone on Facebook, and didn't give her phone number to anyone.

About a week after we published our story about Bobby Phillips, we published another story based on new information Ali leaked to us. In this case, Ali showed me a draft of Covington's final report on the Moonves investigation.

The report reads like a distillation of everything that upset Ali, Moonves' misconduct, and how CBS handled it. We ended up writing several stories about it. Little by little, it increased the pressure on CBS because of Moonves' situation.

The consequences of Ali's actions are both wide-ranging and complex. In the end, CBS decided to fire Moonves and refused to pay him a huge $120 million severance package. However, in a twist, Covington reportedly had to pay an undisclosed settlement to Bobby Phillips and Les Moonves himself as a result of the leak. Moonves released a statement at the time saying he would donate the money to charity.

But it's worth noting that Moonves wasn't the only one exposed by the Ali Gang. CBS also has other problems. The information Ali shared from the report details millions of dollars in secret settlements paid over the years to women who said they were sexually harassed, assaulted or unfairly fired by other men who did not lose their jobs and in continued to work for the network instead. Collectively, the stories give everyone an unprecedented view of how a company handles such a crisis behind closed doors. We never would have gotten it without Ali.

None of this appears in the stories we've covered, and since then, until now, that's been the story of what happened next to Ali. Almost immediately after we started posting stories, a new leaker popped up in Covington. The company begins to find out who it is. According to Ali, an email was sent saying they were aware of someone sharing information with the media and they were working on it.

Then Ali began to notice some serious meetings in the conference room. But the first sign that Ali was in real trouble came one day when she sat down at her computer and started working.

Ali's access to the file seemed suddenly closed. She wonders if this is happening to everyone around her. But she also feared it might be a sign that Covington was onto her. Remember, it's not just Ali's job that's at stake, but her entire career as a lawyer.

Then, over the next few days, more discs were cut off. And Ali grew more and more scared.

Ali said she was summoned for questioning at 4:30 p.m. on Thursday.

Ali's notes relate to two interrogations with Covington. The first lasted two hours, Ali said. She said the lawyer who questioned her did not directly accuse her of being a leaker, but showed her documents in the hope that she would come forward.

Things escalated during the second interrogation. Ali said Covington had two attorneys, a man and a woman, as well as outside counsel they engaged. This time they explicitly accused Ali of leaking information.

This went on for a while. The more Ali denied it, the more nervous the lawyers became. At one point, one of Covington's lawyers was so angry he had to leave the room. The outside lawyer told Ali that he lay awake wondering how such a young up and coming lawyer could do such a thing. Another lawyer from Covington even burst into tears.

Hours later, the Covington team didn't move, but neither did Ali. It all ended in an impasse.

Finally they told Ali she could go. Ali took the elevator down. Just a few months after she started, she stepped out of the Covington Building for the last time.

[play music]

Things got complicated between the two of us to finally expose Ali. She thinks Covington's lawyers made it seem like a very small detail in one of our stories, the number of pages in the draft report, that ultimately got her caught. She was pretty sure she had asked us not to include that detail. But none of us remember her saying that explicitly.

I went back and double checked all our messages. The only message. I was able to find information on the page numbers, I asked Ali if it was correct and she just checked. Besides, in hindsight Ali feels like she would have been caught anyway. All of her activity on that shared drive is traceable, so the company can see everything she has access to, every document, file, SMS, meaning she's basically left footprints in the snow. It was only a matter of time before Covington caught up with her.

For the record, Covington refused to talk to us about this matter. In fact, if Covington hadn't told us how Ali was arrested, we still wouldn't know, and probably never would. I can say that nothing like this has ever happened to me except Ali. Obviously I feel bad about all of this.

[play music]

This interview, which you are hearing today, was the first time I had heard many details about what happened to Ali, in part because the lawyer who represented her through it all advised her not to speak to me anymore. So we haven't lost sight of each other until recently. But what essentially happened to Ali after the CBS investigation was the slow unraveling of her life, the life she had, and the promise of the life she thought she had when she got jobs in Covington and Berlin.

Ali was suspended after she was discovered. Ali thought she was going to be fired and resigned. Covington then filed a complaint with the D.C. Bar Association, which in turn revoked Ali's license to practice law, preventing her from practicing law. Technically, the suspension is one and a half years.

Ali's husband, Lee, urged her to return to her former self. But at least for Ali, she never felt she could recover from it.

Ali has changed jobs. At one point, she got a job at an art agency, earning $12 an hour. When COVID hit and schools tried to hire teachers, Ali started substitute teaching. But that is unreliable. In the midst of it all, Ali didn't enjoy widespread support, in part because of her reluctance to tell people what she did.

Ali said she's had a rough few years since all this happened. Lee's support has never wavered. Even as they deplete Lee's retirement accounts to make ends meet, pay Ali's law school bills (which keep adding up, of course), or mortgage their house, which is true, Ali has been working and out of work. to lose. Ali still remembers the day when she felt stressed and afraid that Lee would lose their home. Li replied: If necessary, I will build you a house with my own hands.

Over the past year, Ali has finally found a steady job as an on-call court reporter. In some ways, that's fine. She can make good use of her legal background. But on the other hand, it also reminds her of the future that she has given up to some extent.

[play music]

In the last five years, a lot has been analyzed about #MeToo, what it has changed, what it hasn't changed, what the consequences have been. A lot feels academic and abstract. I think Ali's story stands out because it is a concrete example of the compromises. She gave up so much, so specifically. In her story there is such a simple version of the question, is it worth it.

I've never forgotten what Ali said about how her decision turned our lives in opposite directions. She lost her career and struggled alone. I gained more visibility and ended up getting a book deal. I did ask, especially in light of what she'd lost, if Ali felt the change #MeToo had brought about was what she wanted. She just said no.

Ali's main feeling is that she has seen many individuals toppled, but she is not seeing the kind of social change she had hoped for.

As for why All is now choosing to tell her story publicly after all these years and the criticisms and risks that come with it, Ali basically said she just doesn't want to live with the secret anymore. She knows that part of her audience will reflect on what she has done and the unwarranted betrayal of her colleagues and her career. They probably thought it was proof that she shouldn't have become a lawyer in the first place, and that she might not be allowed to work as a lawyer again.

Even Ali will tell you she would never advise another lawyer to do what she did. Because if everyone felt like they could break the rules if they didn't like the customer, our entire justice system would collapse. At the same time, Ali also knew that there would be sympathy for her, and she faced a very difficult decision between following these rules and doing what she thought was right. Ali felt all those things too. Five years later, she still sees her decision as a complicated one, an imperfect one that other people may have made as well.

[play music]

Rachel Abrams is a reporter for The New York Times and the author of "Unscripted", based on her reporting for CBS.co-author.

[play music]

We will be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today.

On Wednesday, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed into law a series of socially conservative bills that would ban gender reassignment care for minors, bar children from participating in live drag shows and limit the use of preferred pronouns in schools.

The bills are widely seen as laying the groundwork for a presidential campaign. Meanwhile, the state legislature in Texas passed a law banning medical sex reassignment services for minors. Texas would be the largest state to ban the treatment. The bill has the backing of Republican Governor Greg Abbott, who is expected to sign it into law soon.

In a dire warning on Wednesday, forecasters from the World Meteorological Organization predicted that the next five years could be the warmest on record, driven by human-induced warming and a climate pattern known as El Niño. The forecast is especially concerning because even small increases in temperature would increase the danger of heat waves, wildfires and drought.

Today's show is produced by Diana Nguyen and Rikki Novetsky. It was edited by Ben Calhoun and Paige Cowett with help from Devon Taylor, with contributions from Lisa Chow, Michael Benoist, Lexe Diao and Will Reid. It features original music by Marion Lozano, Elisheba Ittoop, Diane Wang and Dan Powell, and was designed by Chris Wood.

Our theme music is composed by Wonderly's Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk. Special thanks to James Stewart, David Enrich and Sam Dolnick.

This is "daily". I'm Sabrina Tavernise. See you tomorrow.

[play music]